God: Pros vs Cons
Friday, June 5, 2009
Pros :
Heaven
Seeing my loved ones who went before me.
Faith.
Cons:
Disappointment if god actually doesn't exsist.
PROS
Watches over me with my best interest in mind
CONS
Witnesses my every move, including my less than sterling moments
Pros: He has a plan and I everything will be ok.
Cons: I am just fxcked.
sorry for the language.
Pros: knowing it's going to be okay
Cons: worry that it's not
conclusion: don't worry
@ziggaroo eh kid that's not at all what i was saying. I believe faith is something that can save us from ourselves, but it's not an easy thing to maintain. To anyone who would say "prove there is a God" i would say "prove there isn't one". I'm not looking for salvation, i'm looking for piece of mind.
pros:
- cool things you can say, like, "hold you in the palm of his hand"
- a sense of meaning greater than yourself
- beautiful god-inspired art
- comfort that there is shelter from the storm and stuff
- knowing that it somebody loves you, like some sort of big crazy valentine in the sky
cons:
- ugly things you can say, like, "goddamn kids, damn them all to hell"
- a sense of worthlessness here on earth, because what is good at all must be transcendent
- bad god-inspired clothing
- feeling like you will constantly be judged by your beliefs
- makes humanity seem totally petty and useless
Pros:
having someone to back me up whether some else does or not
having someone to care for me and help without me noticing it.
getting to know him
living forever
knowing where we come from
Knowing who pulls the next Kleenex o.O (hahahahahahhahaha this is actually from a quote)
Cons:
trying to find him between all this religion crap
having people pretending to be good
mmmmmm people misjudging him because of imperfect man.
if there is a god, then yes, there is satan.
i dunno :D
Pros-
having a parent figure to lead you
feeling like everything will work itself out according to planned
being able to leave worries and cares on someone else's shoulders
Cons-
Guilt
Sometimes feeling there just isn't a right anwser
Holy wars
Anger when things don't work out the way you feel they should
Pressure to follow a higher being's plan despite personal desires that may deviate from that plan
Feeling like the world is just a giant reality show created for a higher being's entertainment
Televangelists
Touchy catholic priests
Mormons
Feeling like nobody's getting "the point" of any of it
Universal salvation for any who accept Jesus as their Lord and Saviour including murders, child molestors, rapists, tax collectors, telemarketers, and used car salesmen
Sucide cults
Those people who protest soldiers funerals and set up websites like godhatesamerica.com thankgodfordeadsoldiers.com thankgodfor911.com... and other thankgodforhorribleshit.com's
Feeling like maybe God would have a good reason to hate America
Mystical pacifer-like sayings that don't help in crisis like "God works in mysterious ways" and "God has a plan"
Overly forceful Bible thumping neanderthalls who look down on people who don't share the same views and refuse to listen to someone else's side of the story
-and-
Pretty much every single possible instance of "God please save me from your followers"
Pros:
-less alone
-reasoning behind life
-its all for something
-someone is watching me, a parent that's always there
Cons
-so many bad things happening--who would allow all of this suffering
-you shouldn't need god to be moral
-no reasoning behind god
-don't look for own answers, god is always the answer. which is not true
@zamfir Yeah I guess I see how you could think that but that's not at all where I was coming from. I was actually trying to express my annoyed amazement that finite thinking people wax on philosophical about how this and that can't be right if there is a God, or what a terrible God he must be to allow this and that. And btw, you are right, I am hardly a paragon of christian virtue LOL! But I do have an awesome reverence for the power that created all of this and my human mind cannot fathom what it must be like to be so unappreciated. I'm sure God handles it WAY better than I do.
Pros-
A feeling that everything happens for a reason; it's all part of a plan.
Having someone to talk to about the real me.
Asking someone to protect my friends and family, and feeling they will be able to.
Cons-
Feeling guilty about certain parts of the aforementioned real me.
Worrying that I've got it wrong, and the Bible is right.
Loss of faith and hope when something huge and horrible happens.
The people who won't just shut the hell up about him/her/them/it.
Pros
meaning for existence
more intense and grand purpose for morality beyond 'species survival'etc.
eternal existence of soul
psychological check/humility to keep ego in line (universe doesn't revolve around oneself)
Cons
purely materialistic existence
inevitable and terminal death with no significant meaning or impact on the universe
psychological need for greater purpose is filled with materialism (Gucci bags) or inevitably flawed humanistic ideology (north korea, communist Russia, China)
corruption of theological ideas/clergy to perverse ends (inquisition, etc.)
Pros - The idea of god can make a person feel not-alone and be used to justify the pains one must endure in life.
Cons - Oh, man. My mind is flooding . . . God is an old fossil lodged in our brains. It's time to dig it up, carbon date it, and put it in a museum. You see, as long as we believe we have a parental/guiding force looking out for us -a "hand to steady our bicycle"- then we'll never really get to the truth that we are perfectly capable of riding that bike on our own.
The problem with most brands of personal theism that I've observed is that the theists live like they need god. It's fine to believe god exists, but to need god means that we are afraid to live without god. Then our desire for god comes from FEAR not LOVE . . .
Action or decision borne out of fear can never be justified as true choice. It is the nearest harbor in a storm. It is seeking safety at the sacrifice of autonomy. Only when a person can learn to live without the constant faith that god "has a plan" or is "watching out for us" -or even exists as a comforting presence at all- can that person make a rational decision about whether to have god as a part of his/her life.
@miranda_gem The way I, and probably others, perceived it, was tht you were using the word "retarded" to mean stupid, and that IS OFFENSIVE to people with mental disabilities. Maybe your right. I shoudnt tell you that you CANT say it. But I have every right to claim I'm offended and ask that you not say it again.
@MrTylerDavis Has it ever occurred to you that when someone says a word, not everyone takes it the way you do? People who say "That's gay" are idiots to begins with because 'gay' means happy or homosexual, not stupid. And retard is a word that is not always associated with mental disability, unless you don't read much. Fire extinguishers would look awkward with Flame Mental-Disability-ant written on it, wouldn't you say? I personally think it's more offensive when someone treats any word in particular like it's the worst thing in the world. It's a fucking word. And I used it correctly. Quite telling me what I can and cannot say on a public forum that was originally set up for open discussion about taboo subjects. Everyone perceives things differently, I understand that. I get the sense that you don't. As for everything else that you're arguing with me about, everyone is going to live, everyone is going to die, people won't get along and I'd rather see evidence than listen to fairy-tales.
@johnedeals I believe that my the purpose for my (and everyone else's) existence on the earth is so that we can obtain bodies but also to be tested and taught. We are here to gain families, and to have experiences that test our ability to follow God's will.
@miranda_gem Retarded still carries the meaning of mentally disabled no matter how you use it. Just like one could say "When I say 'thats gay' I mean its stupid" or "When I say he throws like woman, woman means bad" Its still taken as an insult to that group which you are accidentally speaking about. When it comes to slurs about specific groups, intent is irrelevant. I do not want to hear those words used. End of story. I'm offended.
And yes, more people have died in the name of theism than antitheism, but one murder is too many. And the killing happens on both sides. Therefore you cant say that religion is bad because people have died. The same can be said about athiesm, and capitalism.
And you told religous pople to go "read a book". Whether or not you think the Bible is dumb, you are still implying that religous people are dumb. Sure some are, but there are dumb athiests. Theres dumb people in all groups, and theres smart people in all groups.
@MrTylerDavis How dare I?
A. If you assume that my comment was a slight against the mentally handicapped, blame your own version of my post. I'm sorry if you're confused but I meant it as a verb. "1. to make slow; delay the development or progress of (an action, process, etc.); hinder or impede." ...Which is only offensive to the people I am addressing. And yes, people ARE retarded(actual definition) when they pass up facts to worship stories, their choice or not.
B. 90% was a ballpark figure, obviously. I'm just saying MOST wars are because of "God". Antitheism has had some play in the killing game, but a small fraction.
C. If someone told you a true story as a child about a beautiful Indian princess who fell ill and appeared to be sleeping for 50 years and was reawaken by a handsome prince's kiss, then fifteen years later someone hands you a history book that discredits the story's actuality, do you still hold it dear and pass it on to your children as truth? No. That would be stupid. The Bible has far dumber stories.
I'm not saying all believers are fundamentalists, I'm just saying that the underlying message, the morals and values that are supposed to be held on high, are simply not. I have plenty of Christian friends, nothing against them, though they do hide behind the label. BUT, people misinterpret the Bible, they shove it in non-believer's faces, then tell us all we're going to hell for not saying something is true when it's not. Thus, making it unbearable for the rest of us. And you might say that it's not a reflection on God, but people make the religion, which is probably why there are so many different branches of each religion. I myself do believe in God, but not as most do. I don't even use the term God when I speak of my beliefs because there are so many stigmas attached to the word. God to me is science, life, nature. It's deities that I have a problem with, and the unquestioning masses that worry me.
@johnedeals Exactly! Thus the pro and the con. The whole purpose of our existence is to know God. And there are clues all over creation to help us do just that. And yet, we can't, really--just as the painting can't know the painter. Forgive me, I'm in love with irony.
@FarmAnywhere So where does this "Be still, and know that I am God" idea come from? Or Jesus saying "if you know me, you know my Father"? Based on God is an unknowable essence
Pro: God is an unknowable essence.
Con: God is an unknowable essence.
Pro's-
It helps people have a reason for living a good, honest life
Cons-
Its the base of many enemies.
However in my opinion, God (what ever your version of God may be) is neither good nor bad, he just is and people use God as an excuse. I mean if you need God to make you live an honest and good life, then there is something a little off but on the other hand if the people that were fighting over God didn't have Him as an object to fight over then they would have found something else to hate each other over. No one can blame God for the actions of Humans.
Pros:
*God can serve as a label for the whole vastness of reality and the universe that we can't quite wrap our limited perceptions around, for people who can't quite grasp that we have such limited vantage points in reality as human beings.
Cons:
*God can become a bastardized symbol of everything subjectively "GOOD", for manipulative people to get what they want from others. i.e., "God told me to kill him!" "In god's name we claim this land", etc.
@JefPrice
"Very intersting thoughts Skippy, so IYO do you think we're born Good, or into Sin.."
Both.
Leaving aside for a moment what anyone may believe the objective viewpoint of their God to be, labels such as 'Good' and 'Sin' are applied by people from an ethically relative point of view.
That is, what is 'Good' in the eyes of one person may be 'Sinful' in the eyes of another (according to the source of their values/beliefs), in the vein of 'One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter'.
That being said, as an atheist, I don't believe there is an objective, absolute value of 'Good' or 'Sin' that can be applied to a newborn.
I believe that a newborn's inherent value of 'goodness' or 'sinfulness' is entirely measureable only from the position of the observer.
So as far as (for example) a Catholic is concerned, the newborn is born with Original Sin firmly attached. While as far as a Buddhist is concerned, the newborn is entirely free of sin and born with an inherent Buddha-like goodness.
I view such labels as being as valuable as any other human constructs - and so all viewpoints are equally valid given their relativistic nature.
From my personal perspective, the newborn is born free of sin (as I don't subscribe to the concept), and with an inherent moral compass that has evolved to maintain a sufficent level of reproductive capability within the social constructs of our species.
I'm rather offend by that remark, however perhaps I misread what you meant, I read what you posted and copied and pasted what you had said to show where I got that impression from.
As far as Dr Tiller being a nut, I mistyped and am sorry for that, I meant his killer. However, I also do find that Abortion IMO to be Murder. however It's legal and the action taken again Dr Tiller was not legal, nor should it be. It was murder, plain and simple, he was gunned down and I've not heard one true Christian do anything but condemn that act.
This is what I meant to type, again sorry for that, I have about five tabs open and am involved in 4 talks right now, I got sloppy typing and it was a mistake/mistype.
"The actual facts of the situation are undeniable, Dr Tiller's killer is a nut. Most of us are not. Hitler is an example many others followed, do you see Christians rising up and following That Killer? No, we condemn the act as immoral."
I'm pretty sure we're supposed to hit above the belt... Let me check... "Speak your mind, but don't hit below the belt." Yep. Do you think that telling me I'm a nut, or that implying that if we contenue to talk you may end up dead is appropriate and following the guide lines of Speaking your mind, but not hitting below the belt?
I'll drop this with you, but I think you need to go back and read my posts again, I was asking (hence the question marks) if that was your view, not saying it was what you wrote.
@JefPrice I didn't say any of those things!!!
All I said is that your argument about the "many" and the "few" is rebutted by the example of any single man who does super-evil stuff.
As for your assertion about Dr. Tiller being a nut, I think I'll drop discussing this with you. You are a nut.
Peace out. Please do not respond to me any more. I do not want to end up dead by some religious nut.
How is it? You're saying that one destroys the many? So what all faith should be outlawed? Hmmmm Muslims caused 9/11 so all Muslims are evil? Hmmm The Catholic Church led the crusades so the must be outlawed?
The actual facts of the situation are undeniable, Dr Tiller is a nut. Most of us are not. Hitler is an example many others followed, do you see Christians rising up and following Tiller? No, we condemn the act's as immoral.
@Zamfir LOL, yes you don't just argue for the sake of arguing: (taken directly from your response to @RJCookenboo)
"From what I see, you've been getting into it with everyone. Simmer down now."
Nope.
@JefPrice You state "that is a completely inaccurate picture" without telling me why it is inaccurate.
When I said "be specific", I didn't mean the specific example that I used. I meant WHY was the specific example inaccurate.
The actual facts of the situation are undeniable. The killer of Dr. Tiller did exactly what I claimed belief allows one to do - an evil act that God "forgives", thus you have nothing stopping you from murdering anybody you don't like, because God will "forgive" you.
Your argument about the "few" vs. the "many" is completely irrelevant - how many Hitlers were there?
@ziggaroo "Dr. Tiller as a counter-example to all your "hundreds of believers"."
One is not the many, it is the few. Everyone has lied, or sinned in some manner, "The thing about believers is that they feel that since they can get "forgiveness" from their conceptual entity that they entitle "God", they can do pretty much anything (like punch somebody) and, after getting said "forgiveness", have not an iota of guilt about their malfeasance."
This is a completely in actuate picture.
As far as numbers go, Out of those 63% how many are rapists? Murders? How many of us are your Dr Tiller? Not the many, the few. It may appear that there are a lot of crazies, however when over half claim a belief there are going to be more then if only a few claimed that belief.
@RJCookenboo "God isn't"
Exactly!
"an invisible person, he's a divine being."
Oh. Care to prove that?
"From what I see, you've been getting into it with everyone. Simmer down now."
Nope.
@JefPrice What is inaccurate about the picture that I am painting? Be specific.
As for an appeal to numbers ("X belief is super popular, so it must be true"), that is a basic logical fallacy. Using that "logic", if you were born in Iraq you would believe in Allah because he is believed by 95% (or whatever huge majority number it actually is) of the people.
@eric33190 If that's really wha you think, you don't know me. Read some of my other posts.
@JefPrice Jeff, I appreciate what you said, but you need go no further than this weeks headlines to find the killer of Dr. Tiller as a counter-example to all your "hundreds of believers".
Plus, unless you know all those hundreds as well as you know yourself, you'll never know if they do evil things that you never hear about. Unless you are with all those hundreds of people 24x7, you have no idea of every action that they do.
@lovedaCHUB The "why not believe, since if we're wrong, no harm, and if we're right, we get saved*" argument is an old one. It's called "Pascal's Wager". You can read the standard rebuttals to it using google.
* (or whatever other reward you get from believing in your particular religious system)
@lovedaCHUB "& if God seems far away, who moved??" That is a great question. When I feel disconnected from God... I realize it was just me walking away from him. It has never failed, the harder I drive toward His heart the more I feel his presence.
If there is a scientific way to test that, I will gladly take it.
@ethernautrix Hey... sometimes I feel like punching people in the faces...
Believing in God doesn't mean I don't feel anger, frustration or any other emotion. I am still a human just like the next guy or girl. I go through and feel all of the sam things.
I'm not saying it's good o feel that way. I also don't ever act upon those things.
God doesn't exempt me from anything.
Soooo i read that whole debate between Zamfir and Ryshuga. Interesting, both sides. & I don't think either of you said anything the other should take offensively.
But as for the actual topic.
Although i think atheism makes a lot more sense and that science is a much more valid argument, i DO believe in God. Here's why, at the end of the day, after all the debates, after praying and worshiping, we are all IGNORANT! Nobody knows what's "up there" (if there is anything), or where we'll go when we die. So i say, why not make or ignorance bliss? Why not live our lives with at the very least a tiny bit of faith? Faith in the fact that there is something much greater than ourselves? So that when we fall ill or a loved one dies or we find ourselves in a state of serious heartache or disaster, we can find solace in our beliefs?
As someone who was forced into Catholicism (all girls catholic school wtfff), i have explored religion and have known and envied those with outstanding faith. However, religion/faith needs to be personal. Just as there are many Christians who voted no on prop 8. Does that make them bad Christians? No, because they have made their faith PERSONAL.
But, making one's faith personal also means allowing others to believe (or not believe) in their own personal faith.
I do not believe in any organized religion. I believe in karma, and that the people we have, and lose, in our lives are there, or not there, for a reason. Not specifically sent from God to help us or guide us, but because i believe the purpose of life is to interact, learn, grow and influence the lives of others. That's my higher power.
MAD RESPECT TO CHRISTIANS, CATHOLICS, BUDDHISTS, PAGANS, JEWS, AND ALL OTHER RELIGIONS. Keep your faith, it can be a beautiful thing!
& if God seems far away, who moved??
@ethernautrix The thing about believers is that they feel that since they can get "forgiveness" from their conceptual entity that they entitle "God", they can do pretty much anything (like punch somebody) and, after getting said "forgiveness", have not an iota of guilt about their malfeasance.
Pro: I don't have to pretend to be anything or anyone than myself with God. He knows who I am, and He loves me regardless.
Con: I cannot pretend to be anything or anyone than myself with God. He knows exactly who I am, and I sometimes don't feel worthy of His love.
@Ryshuga @JefPrice dude... you know. It's just amazes me more everyday how some people just prey on Christians with the whole evidence thing. I honestly feel like punching people in the face some days!! I hope I can witness the return!!! that's all I'm saying!!
(Emphasis mine.)
Dude! That doesn't sound very Christian.
Oh wait...
http://twitpic.com/6rf85
(btw it is my belief that the universe is the deity i worship)
@Ryshuga hey we're all there sometimes. The meaning of what I wrote was more, 'you guys both are getting frustrated or 'into attack mode' for silly reasons.' neither of you are going to change, and that's great! you both have an excellent foundation for what you believe in, and it's not budging. As @i_lovedyoufirst pointed out, soul pancake IS a great place to debate and discuss but, "Speak your mind, but don't hit below the belt."
I really appreciate you taking the high road on this one though, although there were no grudges, nor was I mad about anything, thanks for the apology.
@zamfir Truth be told, the only people I would maybe tie-in to the con category would be those who I know personally who had the full truth at one point in their lives but turned their lives the opposite way, on purpose, in spiteful opposition to God and other believers. This is not me hinting at anyone on this site. I am speaking of family members and former members of my congregation.
Also, I do not hold the belief that too many religious people do that "if you don't believe you're going to hell." I hope that I didn't imply that and that you were just mis-reading me.
@Ryshuga Right you are. Lol though I'm sure that wouldn't go over well with Christ.
The amazing thing is, how often the evidence they use to discredit our calms is proven false. Heck after all this time, they still don't have any hard proof for theories like evolution. (Lucy,Brontosaurs,Peking Man ETC)
IMO, The pros are many, the thing is, that when we sit and think about it, we want to rebel against whatever authority is out there, the whole idea of there being a God, makes us nervous.
Humans have this built in, must find all and explain all tendency and the idea of someone/something beyond that, well it can be hard to come to grips with.
What do we do when we find our selves beyond the rules of what we know? In a world governed by outside forces we may not never fully comprehend in this life?
Hmmmmm I think I feel a new question coming on......
@MrTylerDavis Thank you for addressing that! The very bottom of these posts, I believe, says "Speak your mind, but don't hit below the belt." Think before you type, people.
Pros: He is the God of the universe and will never leave me nor forsake me. That right there covers everything in my life, and is the ultimate pro.
Cons: Um, none.
@eric33190 I apologize to you for the things I said yesterday. I was in a heated debate with an idiot and as soon I somebody jumped in .. I was in attack mode! I'm sorry for that.
@JefPrice
"Does the pressure to be "good" only come from only God?"
Not at all. The concepts of 'right' and 'wrong' exist separately from religion an innate moral intuition exists within people regardless of the fact or nature of their faith.
The biological imperative is that we treat others well (act 'good') so that we can retain our standing in our social network which is, almost needless to say, going to impart a reproductive and therefore evolutionary advantage.
@bestill really you shouldn't be upset, he simply just loves to hassle anyone and everyone that disagrees with what he says. He looks for the argument to start. I'm not saying ANYTHING about his opinion, I happen to agree with it, but there's some people out there that misrepresent an opinion or group of viewpoints so badly like himself, by going out and targeting people to hassle.
Don't let yourself feel bad, he obviously has some issues to clear up with himself, and until that happens he'll sit on this website and attack anyone and everyone that he can find.
Does the pressure to be "good" only come from only God?
Do we have guilt only from fear of being judged or do we feel guilty because of that still small voice which tells us our activity is wrong....
I don't know where to start on the pros and cons of god's existance. But one thing i have noticed is that most of the cons people have listed aren't really cons about God, they are about religious dogmas.
@bestill "Pros: I know why I'm here, where I came from, and where I'm going. There are reasons for everything. I know who to be thankful to. I can find purpose in suffering. I know that regardless of how unique my circumstance, someone else has been there.
Cons: people use His name in vain, turn their backs on Him and abuse His creations."
I took this to mean that the pros are, you know there is a God and you know you're going to Heaven and you know why, and you know that anybody who does not believe as you do, or who doubt the existence of god, are going to Hell. So, by extension, the pro is, you're going to Heaven, because you are right, and those of us who think it's magical thinking are "abusing His creations." And that seemed like a pretty self-righteous point of view.
Looking back, I can see that you were expressing your view as you see it. The trouble is, you put everyone who doesn't think the way you do, in the "con" category.
Pros: "Without God anything is permissible."
Cons: "Without God anything is permissible."
@zamfir You said, "Now, regarding my responses, I think if you look at the posts I responded to, they are justified. "Putting up with the chaff?" Yeah, that's really condescending and hateful."
As to the other post you responded to, that was mine. Its been hours since then, and what you said still bothers me. What is it that was so wrong in my comment? As I said in my reply earlier, that you never acknowledged, was that this is a place to express opinion and I really feel that what I said was no more pointed or angry or negative than many other comments made here before mine. I do try my best not to insult people, and that takes alot of extra effort when typing because of the obvious possibility of things being read the wrong way. You have made few efforts in that department toward anyone you disagree with..but alas. An explanation of my rudeness would be appreciated so that I can correct the problem in future.
Pros:
Beards are cool
All-knowing n shit
Can create anything, like when you have unlimited funds in The Sims
Has a pretty bad ass arch nemesis
Son can create alcohol on the fly. Floating a keg is no biggie when God's son is around.
Cons:
Ted Haggard
Sodom and Gomorrah - They were just having a good time, man. Chill.
Puts coal in misbehaving children's stockings.
If he ever shows his face, he's going to get MOBBED for autographs.
Created women. Should have just created the Fleshlight.
Looks like we've got a troll on here so soon--
Pros:
Feeling as if there's something there to help
A goal for the afterlife
A community of like-minded people
A choice to become religious about it
Cons:
Millions of differing opinions on what that God is
Never being able to pee alone
Fear and guilt
Rules, according to whichever religion is chosen to regulate this God.
@Ryshuga "Wow buddy... still at it hey? Looks like I'm not the only person you misinterpret."
Pardon?
"You have a big chip on your shoulder when it comes to people believing in God. Why does it make you so angry? Why do you feel the need to stab at these people? You my friend need God in a very real way."
No, but it does appear as though you won't leave me alone, no matter how I try to ignore you. What does that tell us?
"If you don't want to find him... you won't. But if you look honestly in your heart and not your mind for once. You will find God. All your scientific evidence does and will forever point toward His existence."
I humbly disagree.
"For the record.... There are no hidden threats in this post either. I never have and never will threaten anybody. I only do. and trust me.... due to the fact that I am not a psychopath. I do not get violent or angry over peoples issues on the internet."
There was nothing hidden in your threat. You were like, "Hey man, don't talk don't to me, you don't know what I'm capable of" or something very similar. Creepy, and totally counterproductive.
Look, man. I made very sound arguments, and you skipped over every one of them just to charge at what you perceived as my weak flank. That's not two-way communication. And to deny human evolution is just backward. Also, for the record, my heart doesn't process information. Just my brain. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to have a heart, but it mainly pumps blood and pretty much stays out of the whole cogitation field.
Now, regarding my responses, I think if you look at the posts I responded to, they are justified. "Putting up with the chaff?" Yeah, that's really condescending and hateful.
You and I are not so different. You are hostile and crass. I'd like to think I'm trying to be constructive with my comments, but I can see how people may take them as hostile and crass. But you have attached yourself to me like some kind of barnacle, and I think it's unhealthy. I say we make a clean break. Please find someone else to troll.
There are no inherent pros or cons to the concept of God. It is the way a person reacts to the idea of God that makes it good or bad.
@zamfir Wow buddy... still at it hey? Looks like I'm not the only person you misinterpret. You have a big chip on your shoulder when it comes to people believing in God. Why does it make you so angry? Why do you feel the need to stab at these people? You my friend need God in a very real way.
If you don't want to find him... you won't. But if you look honestly in your heart and not your mind for once. You will find God. All your scientific evidence does and will forever point toward His existence.
For the record.... There are no hidden threats in this post either.
I never have and never will threaten anybody. I only do. and trust me.... due to the fact that I am not a psychopath. I do not get violent or angry over peoples issues on the internet.
I don't believe in God as an entity, but as a symbol that represents nature. I think language was too primitive when the idea of God began to spread, so the symbol assigned to it was of an all powerful man, rather than of the system of the universe or of nature. So, that in mind, an understanding of God has one simplest pro and con each:
Pro:
• Mitigates fear of death, which is necessary to promote the practice of altruism that helps to bind society together and help it behave more like one cohesive entity that fights for its survival.
Con:
• So easily confused and abused
Pros:
- People who believe will be in heaven
- Everything happened for a reason
- I have someone looking out for me no matter what
Cons:
- I'm definetely going to hell or spend a loooong time in limbo or whatever that in-between place is called.
- I really wasted my time defending atheism and would feel like an idiot.
- Fundamentalist would be right.
@zamfir Is this or is this not a place for people to express opinion? I was not pointing a finger at anyone in that comment. It is my belief that the only sad thing about God's existance is that people disregard and attempt to slander Him, and that makes me sad. I was not casting a stone. I can hardly believe that you found my comment so offensive when this topic alone is already so full of statements much stronger and negative than mine. I'm sorry that you thought I was portraying myself as perfect.. this is not the place for sharing self-loathing or guilt but if you so desire you can create such a topic and you'll see me there.
@meakspeak
That sounded like a claim of superiority and an insult to all who do not believe as you do all at the same time. It almost sounds as though you are chomping at the bit for Armageddon, and to see all "nonbelievers" punished. If you believe that, and I'm not saying that's what you meant to say, jus that it sounded like it, then you're far from what I would consider the model of Christian virtue.
@miranda_gem Unless I missed something, you've said some pretty offensive things here and no one has spoken up against them.
"Half the population is retarded because they think humanity is derived of two people."
A: If people want to believe that, thats their business, and B: Retarded? Thats the first time I've seen that word used on this site, you know why? Because it unnecessarily puts down people with mental disablitites. How dare you.
"90% of wars are started/continued because of "God"."
I might be willing to believe that, is that a real fact or just a made up number. And by the way millions have died in the name of antitheism as well.
"They are usually not well read either. Read a book! Research something!"
Thats condescending, and not based on fact.
Overall, you are saying that all believers in God are like some of the fundementalists you hear about on the news. Yes, some of them might do bad things, but thats not a reflection on God, that is because of those people.
I never want to see someone using the word retarded on here as an insult. Don't. Do it. Again.
Cons:
-Makes people who do horrible things feel safer because they can be "cleansed".
-Half the population is retarded because they think humanity is derived of two people.
-People focus too much on things that aren't important because their pastor says to.
-The masses are easily swayed because they never ask questions.
-90% of wars are started/continued because of "God".
-People think just because something is pretty in nature, someone MUST have had a hand in it. No way it could be evolution and millions of years of organisms changing to thrive in the surrounding environment.
-"God" fearing folk think science is silly. Why choose stories over facts?
-They are usually not well read either. Read a book! Research something!
Pros:
-Old people feel better about dying.
-That's about it.
PROS:
Makes me feel the death of myself and family wouldn't be as sad knowing there is higher power and a "better" place.
Praying is fun when you need help.
You feel good while singing at church.
CONS:
Everything you do makes you feel like you're going to hell.
Pressure to be perfect.
@johnedeals Do you mean, why am I here (as in participating in this discussion) or you do you want to know what I meant by the fact that I know why I'm here?
@wirehangers Typically there is only 1 God. There are however many gods (small g) which depict those "created by man". God creates man and man creates gods! One is never enuf! Religion does have it gods. That is because "religion" is man reaching up to God. Whereas, God reached down to man! One is religion the other is relationship.
Well, which God? There are quite a few. Norse gods, Greek gods, Allah, forgiving god, vengeful god, Morgan Freeman... The utopian God depicted in some (usually few and obscure) religions has very few cons, which is why I have trouble believe it. If things seem too good to be true, they probably are.
On the other hand, any form of organized religion will usually have a God looking out for the religion-starter's agenda and that'll pile on the cons pretty fast.
I wish it was as simple as a pro/con-list.
Pro: The greatest literature in the world that I have enjoyed is on man's relationship to God,(Ramakrishna, Mira Bai, Lao-tzu, David, Hafiz, Rumi, Baha'u'llah, 'Abdu'l-Baha) and our potential in light of His attributes, which are manifest in our love, creativity, knowledge, appreciation, respect, work and worship. There are an infinity of qualities to emulate, but we can only learn them when they are manifest in human form. Curiosity and longing are among the qualities that lead us to learn about the universe, and tell us that science and religion must agree. If they don't, then check your religion, which must agree with reality.
Con: There are an infinity of ways to represent God's name in our own vain imaginings, and to perpetuate superstitions and atrocities with the name of a false god.
Pros: I know why I'm here, where I came from, and where I'm going. There are reasons for everything. I know who to be thankful to. I can find purpose in suffering. I know that regardless of how unique my circumstance, someone else has been there.
Cons: people use His name in vain, turn their backs on Him and abuse His creations.
@zamfir "standards for true justification of the existence of God." Any chance you could post those? Are they based on your standards, or globally accepted standards or some standard that God set out? You know, like he set out some that we need to identify in order for him to confirm he exists? Help me here.
@rollmyeyeso Thats what all of us are doing. Debate is quite natural when you ask induviduals to post their opinion or thoughts. It's okay if people want to debate eachother on something. Like I said below. It's not like you just walked into a room where people are fighting... you don't even have to look at things people say... I don't. The beauty of this site is just that.
You enjoy this site for your own personal reasons. That doesn't mean I can come and enjoy this site for others. I'm not bothering you.. (well maybe now I am!) I simply engage those who attack first.
@ryshuga I tried to hold an intelligent conversation. Yes, I used wit and sarcasm at times, humor is a steam vent for me. I apologize to anyone who was offended. This is an important issue to me. I'm not trying to win, in fact, I am trolling for a real justified answer that meets the standards for true justification of the existence of God. I have yet to find it. If you'd prefer I stop looking, then we are at an impasse.
As for @Ryshuga, we clearly are not going to find any middle ground. I can't argue with someone who denies human evolution any more than I can argue with a "New Earther" or a member of the "Flat Earth Society." You either use science to justify what you want to be true, or you find truth in science. Apparently, those two perspectives are mutually exclusive.
I maintain that there was a veiled threat in his post, and then I was called a prick, and since the only volleys of mine he cared to return were not anything to do with the meat of my argument, I call game over.
You may all go back to whatever it was you were doing now.
I come to Soul Pancake to be inspired, to force creativity in this dull mind and to force myself to think and debate (within my own head). That's why I usually avoid reading responses to questions about God because most often these "debates" just show how cruddy people act to each other. All this tension drives me crazy and I'm sorry I clicked the link. Just had to say this.
@eric33190 Dude... Go find something to do. Go play outside or something. There is no need for you to be irritated or offended by two people debating on a post. You act as if we are sitting in your bedroom yelling at eachother. If you hold this site so dear... you need to get a life.
@eric33190 Maybe myself and Mr. Zamfir enjoy the debate we are dragging through several different topics on this site??? We're keeping it between the two of us as far as I can tell. I enjoy his debate, and... I think he enjoys mine. So I strengthen my middle finger towards you at this point in time.
cons - can't quite get that creation vs. evolution debate resolved
pros - a good reminder that sometimes the problems aren't mine
pro - could tell me where aliens are and what my dog is thinking.
con- probably has a massive ego and would know how much i enjoy cursing and laughing when people fall.
@eric33190 Actually, debate on these issues is actually listed as one of the purposes of this site. So I figure it's ok. You don't have to read it.
@zamfir @Ryshuga do either of you really think anything's going to be accomplished with this argument? what are you trying to achieve? are you trying to 'change' the other? I'll promise you that the attempts are futile, really, the only things you're causing is Soul Pancake readers to have stronger middle finger muscles from scrolling through your arguments on their mouses. Yeah, you both make GREAT points, regardless, it doesn't matter what you say. it really doesn't. so... stop?
@tohuvabohu I've had life changing experiences, too. BIG ones - but nothing special there, all of us have. In addition, to person A event X might be give him/her a hangnail and nothing else, but to person B the exact same event X might be a reason to scream out "Yes, God, I believe! I was a sinner, but now I BELIEVE!"
The difference is that some people don't need magical thinking to explain, basically, just sh*t happening.
@ziggaroo Indeed.
When I was younger, I felt that "white knuckle" feeling that God was there. It was during "invitation" in the Baptist church I was forced to attend. It really felt metaphysical. I know now that it was just an emotional state.
Since then, I've dropped enough acid to know that subjective experience without objective confirmation is no basis for good decision making. Thank you, LSD.
Oh and likin' the atheist debate and cursing in traffic thing. I actually agree with everything you've written on this list.
Replaces my name during sex.
Oh my God. Wow I don't know you and I'm high fiving you immensely for that XD
LOVE this list! lol
@tohuvabohu All kinds of "supernatural" events are easily explained by psychology and/or brain chemistry.
Before people knew about the mental condition(s) that result in "voices in their head", they thought it was "god talking to them". Now we know better.
In fact, a lot of historical researchers have evidence that a lot, if not all, of religous leaders in history were suffering from either minor or major mental illness.
Pro: Makes you think you will live forever.
Con: Allows all kinds of misbehavior, murder, genocide, war crimes, etc, because the person or country doing the actions can say "God told me to lie/kill/hurt/murder"
Con: Allows psychopaths to do all kinds of misbehavior, murder, etc because they can just ask for "forgiveness" to some mythological being and then they wipe their hands of their responsibility for their evil.
Oops. Why did God allow me to make that typo?
Also, why is God preventing me from posting this? (Third try. I hope it doesn't show up three times.) (It's not God; it's the servers.) (Oo, that could be a double entendre.)
@ziggaroo God isn't a happy feeling. Neither is God simply an explanation of the unexplainable. You're right. But some of us have experienced something that is both powerful and personal and is therefore absolutely life changing. In the Bible, Moses didn't just see the unexplainable in the bush that was on fire but not burning up, he also heard the voice of God speaking to him personally.
There have been times when I've wanted to ditch God because I didn't like his limits on my behavior. And I've known that I could use logic to keep him away. But I've had to be honest with myself about the times when I've had supernatural encounters with God that simply can't be explained in any other way. And those have made me say, "No. It would be personally dishonest for me to say that God doesn't exist. I have experienced too much of him."
Pro: Lets people who need to feel superior to others feel superior.
Con: Lets people who need to feel superior feel to others superior.
PRO: 1) The ability to smugly smile when reading comments by atheists; 2) Purpose in life; 3) Hope in the face of suffering and death.
CON: 1) I'm accountable for all of my lameness; 2) Being stubbornly disobedient is out of the question; 3) Having to be associated with rude and unkind people who call themselves Christians.
When somebody says "This tree, my life, the idea of beauty, etc means God exists" all they are saying is that they have no explanation for those things other than magic.
Magic thinking is nice, it makes you feel all warm inside, but in the end you're still a pile of worm food.
@Ryshuga Don't call me your friend only to call me foolish. And no, I don't get the "magnatude." I didn't say anything about "Tome" Cruise either. I don't get it, because there's nothing to get. Zip. Nada. He ain't there. I looked. To be honest, I think it's sort of presumptuous of humans to act as though they know how and by whom the Universe was created, and what this creator wants us to do. It's also vain, in my opinion, to think that we are so darned special we get to go around the ride more than once. There's no proof, but you figure if you holler about it loud enough, and get some of your equally loud friends to holler it with you, you'll "win."
Just keep telling yourself that. I've come to grips with the fact that I will not live beyond death. What, I wonder-wonder, does that make you?
@zamfir Well my friend... If you think of God as some guy, you clearly don't get the magnatude to which I see him. I don't invision God as some Tome Cruise like dude who built everything with his hands.
I see why you wouldn't get it now....
You probably think OJ was innocent. You put your faith in man. If that's not foolish...
@ziggaroo Just as you should admit you cannot prove he doesn't exist. You see... I can show you all the things that are evidence to me that he does. I look at everything around me and conclude... that is the work of the Almight God. You may say. Unfortunately You and I can't stand next to say... a mountain. I can't just call up God, and you can't text mother nature do put an end to our debate. That doesn't mean one of us isn't correct. We just dissagree. One of us may be right.
@zamfir But if God does exist and you say he doesn't.... then wouldn't you be making the extraordinary claim? If I can't produce evidence in your eyes that he does... and you can't prove to me that he doesn't. Does that mean we are both wrong? Or does that mean one of us might be correct but neither of us can show eachother?
Pros: You can find life, love, strength, answers, trust, and happiness in Him.
Cons: (In my own opinion)--> NONE. He gives our lives meanings, and if you have faith in Him, only good things can result from it. :)
In the end. There is a black and white reality. there is, and there is not. If God is real, and his word is real. Then my friends there is a heaven and a hell and if you choose to deny Him.... well... you know where you're going. If he does not, then something else is the reality. We are reincarnated, we fade away blah blah blah....something. If somebody believes it... that's what they believe. You may think they are insane, just as they think you are.
Until somebody proves without a doubt that what they belive is absolute, everyone else will choose to have faith in whatever they believe to be the truth and reality. We are all dead wrong about the afterlife and what happens to us, or.... somebody is right.
I think regardless of what you think will happen to you. Wouldn't you want to spend the rest of your life looking into it... just incase?? I mean... who really wants to go to hell just by error and not by choice? Or who wants to come back as a dung beetle when we could have picked something else???
Let people believe. Search your own heart.
@brianfrahm PRO - if my belief is mis-placed, then I am no worse off than those who don't believe
CON - if my belief is well-placed, then those who don't believe are to be pitied most of all.
That sounds like a very cheap faith to me.
It's called Pascal's Wager. (Google says: http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/wager.html)
Pros: If God is real then we know where we came from and some of our purpose here on earth.
Cons: If God is real that means he is intrinsic to the love concept and I don't like his interpretation of 'loving others.' If God is real it won't change anything, I will keep making the decisions I am making and being the person I am. If God is real I will probably go to hell because I find God limited and small minded.
Pros: He loves me unconditionally.
He will forgive me as long as I ask for it.
He guides me constantly through my walk on this earth.
He CREATED our lives; without Him we wouldn't be here.
He is happiness, He is love.
He is perfect.
He gives us a reason for everything, whether you realize it (or like it) or not.
Cons: There are none because He is perfect.
I would just like to point out that belief in God is not the only way that people can give meaning, purpose, hope, and companionship to their lives. I can find all of these things just by looking at the world around me--from believing in humanity, and in my own existence. I say I don't believe in God because I do not follow the Bible, or any religious scriptures, but in a sense I do believe in God--it's just that for me, God is life, God is love, God is beauty, God is humanity, God is the universe. I like to have faith in something that I can see, that I can feel, that I can take part in.
The other major belief of mine is that my beliefs are just that: MY beliefs. And they don't affect anyone else but me. Just because I believe that when I die, I won't go to heaven, that doesn't mean that no one else will go to heaven. In my opinion, one of the largest cons of religion in general is that there is an inflexibility, even hostility regarding other beliefs, which is one of the main reasons that I do not belong to any religion in particular.
Pros: Somebody to think is causing your happiness.
Cons: Somebody to blame for causing your pain.
Spirituality is our feelings towards unexplicable events and attempts to figure out the puzzles of reality.
Religion is a set of rules we agree to use to govern our moral-related behavior.
Atheism is a lack of belief in an mythological being as an explanatory agent for nature and our own existence.
Religions are a system for certain people to gain power, prestige, and monetary reward by using the weakness of other people in dealing with reality.
Pros: Someone to hand over your problems to; someone to question; when you're happy, being alive is the best
Cons: Why? Why the unbearable pain? Why watch us like we're little toys in your drama series deciding what to happen next. What is the point?
Read "The Denial Of Death" by Becker to gain valuable insight into this question. Won the Pulitzer Prize.
My own opinion is that there is no "God" other than whatever authority-figure "voice" echoes around inside our own consciousness.
@arielle924 I don't believe in god and I've got ethics, morals, purpose, and I love like nobody's business. You'll have to do better than that.
@RJCookenboo We're not haters, we just don't believe in invisible people.
I forgot to add another Con-
Inconsiderate, closed-minded people tell everyone else that if they don't believe in what they believe in, we are all going to an imaginary land of fire and lava. Hell is not real. Period. If you don't believe in what I do, whatever, I don't care. I'm not going to tell you that horrible things will happen to you forever after you die. However, that's all I hear from religious nuts. Honestly, just hearing people say things like that make me cringe.
There are no cons to God's existence. He gives all of our lives meaning. Without God, life is an accident with no purpose. But God exists, so each person's life is meaningful. Another good thing about God's existence is that the world exists. Without God, there would be nothing, since God created the entire universe. Also, since God loves us unconidtionally and God is love, we are able to love other people. There are infinitely many good things there could be listed about God. I've only mentioned a few.
Pros: Unconditional love, forgiveness and acceptance; knows me better than I know myself and still thinks I'm awesome, even though I'm less than stellar; perfection and divine; created the universe and gave Starbucks the idea to create iced caramel macchiatos.
Cons:....none come to mind. Don't be a bunch of haters.
PROS :
Faith and Hope
Exsistence after physical life
Feeling relief because my family firmly believes, where as I am still on that journey.
CONS:
Time is predestined. Scary how a creator can have ones entire life planned out before they're born.
Quality control issues; God keeps creating more life.
People who don't believe and have led a "good life" are going to hell
Cons:
-Makes people who do horrible things feel safer because they can be "cleansed".
-Half the population is retarded because they think humanity is derived of two people.
-People focus too much on things that aren't important because their pastor says to.
-The masses are easily swayed because they never ask questions.
-90% of wars are started/continued because of "God".
-People think just because something is pretty in nature, someone MUST have had a hand in it. No way it could be evolution and millions of years of organisms changing to thrive in the surrounding environment.
-"God" fearing folk think science is silly. Why choose stories over facts?
-They are usually not well read either. Read a book! Research something!
Pros:
-Old people feel better about dying.
-That's about it.
Pros: makes death less scary, provides hope and companionship in situations where there would be none otherwise, makes life feel safer, helps people who need to feel watched to behave well do so.
Cons: contributes to fatalism and the sense that our own actions are irrelevant to a world that follows someone else's plan, provides inarguable rationale for all sorts of behavior, dilutes urgency of living our best lives now.
I think it's funny that most religions will describe God as being beyond our understanding, yet will publish volumes on HOW un-understandable God is, and make a huge debate over the way in which this understanding of the non-understandable nature of God should be understood. The bottom line of all the debates, IMHO, is this: If God exists then He(it) is reality and can be trusted. Shin Buddhists of Japan have a term: SHINJIN - which roughly translates to "True Entrusting." We who believe that there is a God should truly entrust ourselves to that God. If we do not believe that there is a God - then we should truly entrust ourselves to the universe - because, in either case, reality is all we've got!!!
I believe this is a good discussion.
I'm hoping though, that people will base their lists more on what Scriptures say about God and less on what religions have oftentimes mistakenly taught.
For example -- understanding of course the picture above represents a very facetious list -- the guilt associated with God merely a symptom of separation that is easily remedied; and the pressure to "be good" sort of takes care of itself when we read that God's grace is not a function of our actions. When we know we are loved the "being good" is not a struggle or challenge, but a song of worship.
It is telling the number of notions about God people carry that are not based on the Scriptures or on personal relationship, but on hearsay. This person said that this person said that this person said. Even if they have a "Reverend" or a "Father" in front of their name it is no guarantee they are relating things supported by the entire context of Scripture. Find out for yourself before trying to weigh lists of factual pros and cons, lest they merely represent perceived pros and cons. .
@vlealwurtz You would be angry too if the people you saved from slavery and performed insane miracles for on their behalf, not to mention provided for them the whole time. Coninued to blow you off and worship idols...
If you really look into the flood.. here is why. God created the earth as paradise... everything was perfect. There was no death, no hard work, no pain in childbirth... Perfection... heaven on earth. We turned around and basicaly spit in Gods face and became wicked... We disobeyed, we killed, we we sexually immoral, incest, drunkeness... you name it. At that time people became so bad as a whole... God said: "Do over!!" Yeah... seems pretty harsh. He needs to do it again.
pro: Hope and gives people a certain passion and thats always good regardless of the affinity [usually], teaches ppl morals etc. learn alot
cons: people can construe it and think they have it all figured out. theyre always right when they themselves dont know. can cause big egos too. I wont go to the global war extent that is today, but its seeded from the ego concept....
PRO - if my belief is mis-placed, then I am no worse off than those who don't believe
CON - if my belief is well-placed, then those who don't believe are to be pitied most of all.
PRO - i get to go to a sweet party in the sky that lasts forever.
CON - have to wake up early on sunday mornings, and go sit for an hour while trying not to fall asleep and have to pretend like I pray.
PROS:
• I always feel like there is someone listening to me, even when I'm not talking aloud.
• I see all the beauty in the world and have a hard time believing it "just happened that way".
• When I was more of a believer, I would pray for help and it would often come immediately. My mom used to say I should pray for her because God actually listened to me.
Cons:
• The bible was written by man and looks like an early version of "The Lord of the Rings". When reading it, I'm just waiting for Jesus to ride in to town on a unicorn.
• With time and self education, I have lost the forced beliefs from brainwashing at my little Catholic church in my little home town. Small towns are great about persecuting people for anything the group doesn't unanimously believe. People are afraid to be wrong... or right.
• God by the bible was angry in the Old Testament and kind in the New Testament. I have never been an avid reader of the bible, but would God really drown everyone in the world except Noah and a few animals?
@joannchilada short and sweet, sums up my notion better than I could ... hey ... are you in my head?
Pros:
I think it would be comforting to think that things happened for a reason.
An afterlife is a nice thought.
Someone to talk to before bed
The concept has inspired some beautiful art.
Cons:
If there is a god he'd have to be kinda twisted to create the disease and violence natural disasters.
There's a reason for this?????
Even if I've been a good person, if I don't believe in him I get sent to hell?
Seems rather petty to care what I'm doing or thinking, whether I sacrificed a sheep or didn't eat meat on Fridays.
Pros:
I get to live forever
I can justify whatever I do
I can look down on others
Science? Bah!
Cons:
Praying is sort of like wrestling with a dog. I feel goofy afterward and nothing comes of it.
Sitting down, standing up, sitting down, standing up - wash rinse repeat.
I've settled the answers to life's greatest questions with a bumper sticker
I've got to find a way to blow off billions of years of fossil evidence - Awkward!
Pros: Kind of a cool concept.
Cons: People using God as an excuse to do ungodly things.
DISCUSSION TOOLSET
Pros:
meaning in the madness
order in the chaos
beauty in the brokenness
Cons:
paradox
mystery
uncertainty